VANNOY:

Hello everybody, and thank you for joining today. As we unpack our latest ebook 2020 election impacts How a Biden Administration Will Work, will shape Workforce policies and practices. My name is Mike Vannoy. I’m the head of marketing at Asure, and I’m really thrilled to have a, have a special guest today. My boss, our chairman, and C e o, Pat Goepel. I’ve known Pat for what, 20, 25 years in, in, and Pat is more than just someone who spent 30 plus years in the human capital management, the payroll, HR space. But I, but I would say a, a, a student of the game when it comes to business in a, in a, I think brings a unique perspective to this conversation today, knowing that as Asure has, you know, more than 60,000 clients, more specifically 60,000 small and midsized businesses as clients. And so, you know, he’s looking at this on a daily basis, how things like policy and covid and elections, how this impacts small business owners in, in the, in the inevitable client compliance changes that come along with new administrations. And so, pat thank you for joining me today as we unpack the latest ebook.

GOEPEL:

Yeah, Mike, I’m very excited to be with you and a lot of our customers today. So, welcome.

VANNOY:

Yeah, thanks. Okay. So if you, if everyone hasn’t already done it, I would encourage you to hop out to the website ww dot Asure software.com/ebook-twenty 20 dash election dash impacts. If you don’t remember that, just, you know, Google is your software, you’ll end up on our site, and it’s right in the right in the top menu. Easy, easy to find. So I would encourage you to, to grab that, download it. You can follow along a a, as we’re talking today, we’re gonna roughly follow this same same ordering of topics, if you will. You know, we’re, we’re gonna talk about COVID 19. We’re gonna talk, and the impact it’s gonna have on small businesses, healthcare human capital management issues like minimum wage and overtime, and pay equity and job classification labor relations, compliance, retirement, all these things that are kind of proposals in in, in the Biden administration in, in some of the possible impacts it’s gonna have on small business.

The thing I’m gonna caveat here, just real quick before we jump into our first topic is this is this ebook and this conversation, this is not political commentary. We are not choosing sides. We are not a pro red or a pro blue. We’re not anti red, anti blue at, at Asure, we only care about one thing that’s helping small, mid-sized companies navigate the complex waters of compliance that are inevitable when there are major sea changes like we’re going through right now between covid and an administration change, and to just help you prepare. So, whether you love these policies, whether you, whether you hate these we just want you to be prepared and, and, and to be thinking about changes that, you know, are, some of these probably are for sure gonna happen, some might not at, at this writing. And still, I’d say some to some degree at this recording this election is obviously being contested by, by the current administration.

 We believe we, we felt safe publishing this, that it, it, it is an inevitability that we are considering this to be a president-elect Biden, though obviously anything can still happen in the courts. So, so that’s caveat number one. Caveat number two is what we’re gonna be sharing is in the ebook walks through, I would say the Biden administration plans in many of these areas. Clearly, these are gonna be contested by the Republicans in the results of these January Senate runoffs. It’s probably gonna have a pretty huge impact for the likelihood of these things actually getting implemented. And either way, I think it’s important for small business owners to under, to understand the landscape. So with that, let’s, let’s just jump into our first topic here, pat, when, when we talk about Covid 19 I, I think, you know, I think the, the punchline story, big impact for 2019 with Covid, you know, hadn’t talked a lot about P P P, but before we go there, can you just kind of share your insights on how you think small businesses should be thinking about, you know you know, may, maybe not so much masks you know, maybe put a plug there if you want, but really be thinking about shutdowns.

How should they be planning for shutdowns? How do you, how do you see this on a daily basis? Looking at, look, looking at a, a business that monitors 60,000 small businesses?

GOEPEL:

Yeah, no, Mike, it’s a great question. And, and I think about perspective in March of this year, you know, everything was up for grabs. The virus was spreading. It was this, it was this silent problem that was affecting the world and maybe somebody else. But then all of a sudden it said, wait a second, this isn’t the flu. This is something different. We gotta take it seriously, and we gotta shut down. And people really scrambled. And they scrambled in the sense that the fear of the unknown their business all of a sudden was shut down for a period of time. They didn’t know if it was gonna be six weeks or six months or what have you. Many people weren’t prepared financially for that. They were looking for the government. The government, I think, to their credit, jumped in really swiftly with some programs.

You know, everybody was seeking to understand, you know, how do we stay in business? Do we find a favored uncle and borrow, you know, a couple hundred thousand dollars? Do we get money from the government? How do we stay alive? The employees were asking questions, you know, how do I, you know, pay the bills, et cetera. So there was so much fear, uncertainty, how long I, I think now this time there, there’s hope of a vaccine, and I think people are seeing that a vaccine can happen. And it’s just around the corner as far as mass or, or spreading of the disease. There was so many unknowns at the time, you know, could you get it on a surface? Are you getting it airborne? You know, how, how does the, the disease spread? So now I think there’s a known, right?

And, and in the previous, in March, April, may, there was fear of the unknown. I think companies are very resilient. Business o owners, entrepreneurs are resilient. They know how to deal with this now. They’re frustrated, but by the same token, they know how to deal with it. They’re operating at 25 or 50% efficiency. They’re fix their supply chains. They’re helping the do takeout for their clients, et cetera. So I think now it’s really, how do we get to the other side? How do we get vaccinated quickly? How do we hang on a little assistance from the government certainly would help in, in a small business perspective. And I think it’s been frustrating that the assistant seems to be around the corner, but it hasn’t happened. But now it’s, hang on and then grow when we get the other side of the vaccine, probably in the first quarter, end of first quarter, second quarter, when it really kind of takes effect. And how do we look at the new normal and the return to normalcy. So I think that’s the big difference versus what it was in, in March, April, may,

VANNOY:

Pat. So, you know, there’re the expression, you know, we’re all in the same storm, not in the same boat, you know. So if I’m if I’m selling video conferencing software, this is in a, in a kind of a twisted tail, a pretty good year for me, right? But if I’m a restaurant or, you know, something, somebody, you, that faces the, the public, you know, not so much. So any, any guidance you would give to small business owners who are more heavily impacted, how to brace or how to prepare to, to navigate, you know, I mean, we’re talking April, may, June-ish, right? For, you know, propagation to the, to the broader public here of a vaccine. How, how should they be thinking about, you know, is it better down the hatches? Is it, is it, you know hey, the cavalry’s coming. What, what advice would you give these guys?

GOEPEL:

Yeah, I really think that the tailwinds, the tailwinds are coming and you face some of the worst headwinds in the history of really the world. And what you have to do right now is preserve capital for the next three, four months while planning while planning success. And so if you can just hang on cash really break even, but prepare yourself for growth, because when we come out of this pandemic, we’re gonna grow. It’d be nice if the government, and I do think the government will come through with some kind of assistance here you know, for workers as well as some businesses some light assistance. But I would be preparing and really looking through and saying almost like you’re in college. You’re in college, or you’re high school. You’re, you might be eating macaroni and cheese, you might not be going out to dinner.

You you’re preserving cash. You’re, you’re, if you give a buddy a ride, you’re asking for a dollar for gas. You’re doing that to get the other end of the pandemic in, in the vaccination. And then really, I think you’ll see business formation and the business climate change dramatically upward, because there’ll be a lot of pent up demand. People have been home for a year. People are gonna wanna do things. If you’re in that restaurant, hotel industry, even travel you’re gonna start to wanna get out. You’re gonna, you know, there’s gonna be a return to normalcy. And if I even look at the US Chamber of Commerce data applications for new businesses are at an all time high. And that doesn’t mean they’re open for business yet, but people are thinking about filling the void that’s been left with the pandemic and filling the void in industries that have been crushed, because they know as they get to the other side there’s gonna be tremendous business opportunities. So for me, if you’re a small business owner, think three to five years ahead, think of the opportunities that are coming and don’t wallow in the past. And I know it’s hard because believe me, every business yes, there have been some businesses that have done very well, but, but they’re the few, they’re not the the norm, especially in the small business community.

VANNOY:

Yeah. Thanks. And, and I, I’m, we’ll, I’ll probably invite you back, we’ll have another conversation in, in the next couple months. It’s gonna be really interesting to see with all these new applications for federal ID numbers that don’t yet have corresponding, you know, revenue generating businesses tied to them, you know, what that, what that’s gonna really look like as we enter kind of a, a post covid era of, of entrepreneurship. All right, let’s move to our next topic healthcare. So so healthcare costs in, in a lot of ways, not a lot of ways, healthcare costs. And really, we’re down in a, in a weird way, with 2020, right? Because, you know, you couldn’t go to the doctor for anything that wasn’t essential for very long periods of time. So people had non-essential services that were kind of put on hold and, and delayed. What are you seeing when you talk to carriers in expectation around what healthcare costs are gonna look like in 2021, you know, specifically, you know, the reopening kind of combined with a pent up demand, if you will.

GOEPEL:

No, I think it’s a good question. I think if you take a step back and with the Biden administration coming in, and, and really just in general, if you think about I think everybody’s been frustrated with healthcare. You know, the public option was born you know, with the Obama administration, but, but really it was a result of preexisting conditions people not being covered with health insurance employers that, you know, were not as paternalistic as they were in the fifties or the sixties. It wasn’t a healthcare for life situation. And, and really, if I think about it on a broader scale Americans need a safety net at some point in time, and especially with the pandemic. And, and I do think the pandemic’s gonna be kind of that burning bridge or that event that makes some of these advances happen.

And, and to me, with public healthcare you know, I think you’re gonna see a strengthening of public healthcare. I think there’s gonna be an absolute assault on prescription drugs. The costs of prescription drugs have gotten way too high and not affordable, and there’s gonna be some kind of methodology to, to make that affordable to mainstream America. So I think you’ll see some of those changes as far as costs of healthcare, I think there’s going to be pressure, but I do think lawmakers are zeroing in on how do they, how do, how does healthcare not go up over the price of inflation? And so there will be, you know, obviously the cost sharing and, and some of the high deductible plans will continue to be important in order to bring down costs and to have people spend healthcare like it’s their own money.

And, and be judicious about what kind of healthcare you get. I, I, I do think you’re gonna see some safety nets you know, around an increase in Medicare and increase around people covered, because you can’t throw people on the street without healthcare. That’s not who we are as Americans. And the system where the employers were p paternalistic is gone away and, and really gone away. But we do have to create that safety net. So that, that’s how I see it. I think the pandemic’s gonna have that burning platform for change that has been needed over the last 10, 15 years. It just probably hasn’t happened quick enough yet. But I think you’ll see it as a catalyst of change.

VANNOY:

So we did a webinar maybe it’s two, three months ago on self-insurance in how, you know, in, in, in the past. I think that’s been a concept that e either you knew about it and you just assumed that was for big companies, small companies couldn’t afford it, or you didn’t even know it was such a thing, right? And, and we’re gonna do a follow up on that in the coming weeks around prescription drugs as a carve out separate plan, just because it’s a, it’s the fastest growing cost component of, of health insurance. What, so, I, I know, as, as Asure is, is self-insured, pat, and any advice you’d give to entrepreneurs to, as they think about, you know, the, the tools and mechanisms they really do have at their disposal for risk management around being self-insured versus, you know, just, Hey, I, I mean, it’s binary. Either they’re on the, either they’re in the open market, or I provide ’em an expensive plan. What, what, what, what other options could do exist out there?

GOEPEL:

Yeah, the, the insurance co the insurance cost is not binary. It almost used to be you have insurance or you don’t. And nowadays the there’s a continuum of options. And I would encourage you, a, as a small business owner and be aggressive in pursuing business owner or that continuum and, and self-insurance just sim very similar to, you know, buying auto insurance or, or home insurance. You know, what’s the first thing you do to keep costs down? You know, you raise your deductibles and, and self-insurance really is that continuum of raising the deductible at Asure you know, we pay claims you know, now under a hundred thousand dollars and then, you know, really we’re insured after that. That might not be the right plan for you. But we are continuing to push those self insure limits. And, and it’s worked out very well for us as an employer where we’ve been able to keep costs down.

By the same token we’ve offered and been very aggressive in HSAs and healthcare savings. So, so employees can save for future healthcare expenses and then high deductible plans. Our workforce about 60% choose high deductible plans. We offer kind of full service plans for, for folks and, and 40% choose that. But increasingly, employees wanna take charge of their healthcare. They want to be able to save for it for the future, and they wanna participate in high deductible plans and healthier options where it’s running contests or step contests or, or weight loss programs, et cetera. You know, it takes a village to lower costs. I think the Biden administration and, and the government will help out in some of those kind of changing and, and really looking at this in a much different way. But from a small business owner, you’re not powerless at all. You have more options available to you that at any time in, in your history, it used to be small businesses were treated almost like a pool where you had to join a bunch of companies. Now you have those options a as as you gain size, and you have a continuum of options. And if you use that wisely, you can keep costs down where you can keep costs relatively flat for the employees and for yourselves over a period of 3, 5, 7 years. That was unheard of maybe 10 years ago.

VANNOY:

Yeah. No, I’m glad, I’m glad we took that, went down that rabbit hole. And, and I, and I can say, you know, that so’s lots of data out there and, and, and having participated in companies that do this and don’t do this it, it may be a little scary if you’re not entrepreneur, Hey, I, this is just yet one more thing for me to manage. But when the employer and employee are in the same camp together, trying to drive down cost, it doesn’t feel like it’s a spreadsheet exercise. It feels like we’re trying to be healthy, right? We’re trying to avoid heart attacks, we’re trying to avoid diabetes. We’re trying to avoid, you know, what, what ends up being big claims. That’s the spreadsheet end of it. But the positive end is really just positive employee engagement in a, in a healthy employee employer relationship.

GOEPEL:

I agree.

VANNOY:

Yeah. Okay, let’s move on. We’ll, we’ll talk human capital management. So th th this is this, there’s a, this is a little bit legislative heavy, a little, little wonky, if you will about some of the changes, you know, from, from federal minimum wage you know overtime exemption. I mean, there just, just in and of itself, you know if, if all it’s, I don’t have the exact number, but it’s, it certainly is hundreds of thousands of employees who are, have salaries that are exempt employees. But if they actually tracked how much they made and how much, how many hours they work a week employers are gonna be in trouble with classification issues of owing o overtime. Let’s, maybe, instead of diving deep on each of these things, I’d encourage everybody to read the ebook. The data is really good. But Pat, what, how, how should, how do you think entrepreneurs, business owners should be thinking about compliance for, for this new world where there’s gonna be a bunch of legalese that, you know, I, I feel like small business owners, they’re working their butts off trying to survive and grow their businesses. They don’t know what they don’t know when it comes to all this compliance stuff.

GOEPEL:

No, I, and I, and I think it’s a great topic because I think you’re gonna see more policy shifts in in wage overtime taxes in the next four, four years than you’ve seen in the previous 10. So I think, you know, you’re gonna have states, localities, federal, they’re all gonna up the minimum wage. And there, there’s, you know, $15 was unheard of two or three years ago, and it’s already not in, in cities like Seattle, et cetera. So you’re going to see this concept of a living wage a safety net, if you will. And you’re gonna see it being proposed by federal, state, low local localities. So you’re gonna see change two i i, I think, you know, if you think of the pandemic and where people live cities like San Francisco, New York they’re, they’re losing money by not getting enough taxes, and people are moving out in droves.

People can work anywhere. That’s changed the game quite a bit. At the same time, these local state national governments are gonna increase the exposure on audits. They’re gonna be worker friendly, but yet they’re also gonna look for money to cover their budget deficits. So I think you’re gonna see more change in the next 40 years than the previous 10. I think it’s gonna be a compliance heavier, more audits, more legislation, more grabbing of the money because they need money to survive. Whether it’s the local county government, state governments, federal government, at the same point in time, they’re trying to protect those workers. And the divide between the have, and let’s say the have nots has only grown quite a bit, and they wanna protect the workers doing it, but they need money to pay for it at a time where they’re under assault. Because people are working traditionally in cities and states that they might not have to work long term.

And states have been very aggressive of almost, you know, recruiting workers to live in a different part of the nation and, and become part of their tax base. And some of the older line cities and states just don’t have the money to support that or the infrastructure. So I think it’s gonna be challenging times as a business owner. I think the laws are gonna change. It’s gonna feel like it’s coming from everywhere. And I also think the penalties for noncompliance are going to increase. And I think that’s just a pendulum of change, but it’s also a pendulum of change under the burning platform of a pandemic and budget deficits,

VANNOY:

Pat. So thinking about the context of, of, of human capital. So there, there are, in, in, when we, we we’re gonna talk compliance in a, in a few minutes here in enforcement, cause I think you’re hitting on something really big. I mean, adminis, different administrations choose what to focus on what they do and don’t lead into for enforcement, right? But so we’ll revisit that. But when I think about human capital and how do you, how do you manage human capital? So there’s this legalese world, right? You know, is an employee exempt and or not exempt? How’s that changing? What’s the, what’s the, the, the, the, the minimum wage laws? What are overtime laws et cetera. But there’s also kind of a sea change around topics like pay equity, right? So like on paper, you know, it’s illegal to not pay different genders for doing the same job, but would without, without diving deep on specific legislation or even specific topics, how, how would you, how would you guide small business owners to, to think about some of the broader sea changes around culturally managing their human capital in, I’d say getting ahead of the legalese by just being with the times of a modern workforce?

GOEPEL:

Yeah, no, I think about that a lot. And, and I think, you know, one of the things is you know, I think if we’re gonna have a quality between male and female workers and, and all the workforce in general, the policy’s gotta be equal as well. So things like you know paternity leave as well as maternity leave whether you’re a mother or a father, you know, you still wanna see that baby for the first four weeks or six weeks. And, and there’s an awful lot to do. So policies that, you know, are really gender neutral, you know, is a way that you can, you know, kinda get ahead of some of the sea change. A as far as the, you know, treating of employees and attracting of employees, you know, employees today they don’t want an all or nothing approach.

 You know, whether it’s you know, the ability to come into an office, but the ability to work from home, you know, they want that flexibility. And if you think about people’s schedules, whether it’s doctor appointments or dentist appointments or, or hairs cetera, the flexibility that they can do that in the workforce day, but also they can work a little bit in the evening hours or, or before school, you know, the flexibility, I think is the key word there. And providing policies that will allow that. And, and then gender neutral I think is policies is really important as well. And then from a raised perspective, you know, trying to really look at potentially even your biases as a business owner and, and just kinda rethink policies that are fair and equitable for everyone. And then publishing those with transparency, to me goes a long way in building trust. And, you know, as a business owner, if you can do some of those things, I think you can get ahead of the curve. And I do think you’re gonna see some change from a legislative front.

VANNOY:

I’m curious for your thoughts on this whole independent contractor classification. You know, you got I, I think this is gonna really come, it’s gonna come up a lot in 2021. You know vice President-elect Terrace you know, led in, in California this work around this area where, you know, the state of California has stricter laws around worker classification than the I R s code does. Right? So, and this is probably gonna be pressed nationwide in, in, and I think, you know, there’s, there’s this friction that I see in the market where probably some people trying to go 10 99 employees cuz they’re trying to save a buck on taxes. But mostly it’s this, the new world models right, of a gig economy in, in truly where it’s employees who, who want flexible work. How, how should employers be thinking about kind of navigating these waters? May maybe, maybe they like the idea of of providing flexible work, their employees like flexible work. How should they be thinking about 10 99 versus W2 and expenses relative to kind of the, the natural flow to a gig economy?

GOEPEL:

No, I think you’re gonna see, you know, it, it used to be that the worker, you know, really looked to the employer and the employer relationship is almost a paternalistic one. And, and, you know, they got a w2, they got healthcare, they got everything from that employer, but, but they worked for that employer for decades. Well, now, you know, the gig economy people have 3, 4, 5 employers maybe at once. That’s a much different paradigm. I, I, I think, you know, legislation’s gotta probably keep up with that sea change in the gig economy. And, and candidly, if you just go back to the state, local and national governments, they’re gonna enforce this much harder. So the gap between a 10 99 employee and a W2 employee financially is going to get closed over time. So I, I think it’s be careful what you wish for, cuz ultimately you will get taxed.

 Now the question then around a 10 99 or a W2 employee, I think it’s gonna be enforced at a much greater detail than it has been in the past. I think you’re gonna see some of that teeth show up over the next four or five years. You’ll see more stringent audits, you’ll see penalties for the employer if they get it wrong. So I think there’s gonna be, from a small business owner, much more demand on information around classifying that to, to where they truly are a W2 employee. I think as an employee you know, you’re, you’re gonna, if you have a 10 99 job and it’s classified as such, you just wanna pay your taxes on time. You wanna, you know, the individual almost gonna have more burden on, on taxes coming from that 10 99 relationship than they ever were before. And, and it’s, and, and I do think you’ll see some changes not only at the state level, local level, and the federal area.

I I even see this worldwide in the, in, in the world actually is struggling, struggling with this classification let alone the US. So the decision in California with Uber and Lyft is far from over. I think you’re gonna see some of that play out over the next couple years. From an employee perspective, you know, I think health insurance obviously is a reason to be working with a company in a, in, in a W2 relationship. The access to healthcare as it goes more and more individual, we’ll help break that down. But the government’s gonna wanna get their money from the individual workers at some point in time. And then in order to really retire, whether traditional notion of social security, gotta pay it some taxes in order to get that benefit, you’re gonna see more of those linkages start to be enforced over the next four or five years.

VANNOY:

Yeah. Great. Appreciate that feedback. Let’s just touch real quick on, on foreign workers. Obviously, you know, immigration, foreign labor, hot, hot, hot top in the 2016 cycle. You know, covid and economy obviously dominated the headlines for the 2020 cycle. But there, but there’s gonna be, there’s gonna be proposals and, and proposed changes to immigration policy and, and specifically released to foreign workers. Any, any guidance you would have on maybe risks Gotcha. To be on lookout for, but also opportunities for employers to tap into new talent pools.

GOEPEL:

Yeah, I, I think a lot of times the foreign policies also directly related to the economies. So as the economy is booming and there’s a shortage of workers you know, you’re, you’re gonna see more pressure to, to have immigration and have access to talent or skilled talent as well as you know, people that wanna work. Now over the last nine months or so, we’ve lost approximately 10 million jobs out of the workforce. So, you know, the pendulum swings both ways, but I do think you’ll see more aggressive immigration policies and especially as the economy starts to improve in the second half of 2021. And in a return to normalcy, you’re, you’re gonna probably see the borders open a bit and companies are gonna wanna tax access to to workers not only in the country, but worldwide as there are return to normal.

VANNOY:

Yeah. Okay. Let’s move on to our next topic. For, for labor relations. No, no. Secret President-elect Biden, you know, has, has, has a, has a track record of, of, of pro-labor here. You know, currently the Republicans control the national labor relations board. And so that will have some, you know pushback and delayed impact for, for his policies. But h how should, how should small business owners be thinking about, you know you know, LA labor and, and, and or organized labor? Is this is a thing, this a thing that they shouldn’t worry about? Cuz this is really just big public sector unions in a big company thing? Or, or, or, or how might this impact them?

GOEPEL:

You know, I think from a small business perspective, you know, if you, if you think about union, union and the private sector, you know, has eroded quite a bit over the last 20, 20 years or so, if I look to Europe you know, there, there’s kinda, I think what you’re gonna see is more of this safety net approach where, you know, you, especially in the hospitality industry, the restaurants, et cetera, I think you’re gonna see a push for a living wage for kind of that safety net of, Hey, I, I’m, I’m gonna have a livable a livable wage to, to live on. And I, you know, I think you’re gonna see that come in more and more. I, I think the whole idea of collective bargaining you know, could it cross individual companies and get into industries, you know, I, I think there’ll be a push in that area as well.

So if you’re a small business that’s, you know, part of a, a bigger industry, I’d keep an eye out of it an eye on it because I think you could see some real change in that area, you know, the waiters and waitresses of a number of different businesses as opposed to the individual business. But, you know, most small businesses, again, it just goes back to treating people fairly following the rules. I, I don’t think you’ll see a, a huge threat around unionization, but I do think you’re gonna have to keep a weather eye on policy policy changes, enforcement of policy changes, minimum wage, and, and then this idea of the living wage that, you know, people can live comfortably and, and get access to healthcare and all the services that they need to, to have their family be successful.

VANNOY:

Yeah. You know what, let’s, let’s stay on that topic for a second. So it, when I think about the term labor relations, you know, it, it, it has this instantaneous connotation to, you know, Upton Sinclair’s the jungle and organized labor and giving the workers a voice, right? Well, this, we, we don’t, we’re not exactly in Upton Sinclair’s jungle territory anymore, right? But that doesn’t mean people don’t need a voice and don’t need a safety net of any, any kind. So forget the legalese part of it, you know, how, how should employers be thinking about, you know, you, you, you mentioned just kind of treating your employees with respect in, in making, making it a, a partnership with them. How does a small business owner think about that when they’re like, oh my gosh, I can’t, I can’t afford, you know, $15 an hour for, cuz I’m a service business and, you know, how do I quote unquote, do the right thing for my employees and still stay afloat? You know, what, what advice do you have there?

GOEPEL:

Yeah, I think really engaging the employees on, you know, and, and kind of opening up financially that, you know, how should it work if you know, if we talked about a $15 an hour, for example, and they’re getting paid 10, you know, how, how can we be more efficient so we can get ahead of this and, and do it, get their buy-in and ask them, right? Employees sometimes are the best source of information on how to run a business more effectively. Sometimes, you know, as a business owner, you might have multiple locations, you might have multiple things that you’re focused on, but they’re there every day and they know how to be more efficient. They know how to grow the business, they know how to be successful. And if you bring them in as more of a partner you know, the best ideas sometimes come closest to the transaction transac, and there’s nobody closer to the transaction than your employees. And I think if you engage in those conversations and make them part of the solution as opposed to viewing it as part of a problem, I, I, I think that’s where you find some breakthrough results for both you and the employees.

VANNOY:

No, I, I, I, I love that. I, and I think about, it’s kind of a, kind of a formula, right? How do you avoid healthcare costs? Will you be healthy? How do you avoid an adversarial relationship between management labor? Well, you, you treat your employees with respect and include them in the process, right? So that, that’s great. Okay. Let’s let’s move on to compliance. And, and here I do want to talk a little about, about what is probably gonna be a shift in, in a, in enforcement, right? So d e i training that’s diversity, equity, and inclusion. You know, there is you know, Trump has signed executive orders changing what was and was not more specifically required for, for federal training programs e eeo reporting you know, I think we have good content.

I’d encourage Jerry to read it in the ebook that I think looking for more your thoughts, pat on this heightened enforcement in the penalties. You’ve, you’ve touched on this a few times, but I, but I, I, this, this is, so, it is not just diversity in eeo it, it, it is all of the pending legislation, you know, regret ignorance of law is no excuse, right? And there’s gonna be a lot of change in compliance. How should entrepreneurs be thinking about how the heck they’re gonna stay compliant in, in what some of the impacts are gonna be if you’re not?

GOEPEL:

No, and I, and I think you’re gonna see brighter lines. I think you’re gonna see more enforcement. And I also think you’re gonna see it dusting off of policies. You know, if I think back to workman’s compensation and osha you know, for example there was pendulums where, you know, roofing industries were probably not paying enough in workman’s comp. And, and there were accidents that were hap happening. And, and, you know, the OSHA rules started to get enforced, and then they kind of started to, you know, kind of loosen up and maybe not get covered as much. And, and now I think you’re gonna see a return to that. You’re gonna have worker safety a good environment for, for employees to work both at the location, but have the flexibility to work at home and, and to do that effectively from a pay data reporting.

You know, I think you’re gonna see you know, EEO and, and, and you already see it in society, you know, kind of this gender neutral, you know, everybody gets treated fairly and, and, you know, it’s probably long overdue and there’s been some biases that people come in with it. But, but you know, it’s here to stay. And I, and I don’t think it’s something that’s gonna go away. I, I think legislation’s gonna get tighter and tighter in this area. And from an enforcement perspective, over the last maybe 12 years, what I think the government was realizing was, you know, it was less and less enforcement, but then all of a sudden it was less and less dollars. And, you know, when you look at trillion dollar deficits and, and, you know, we’re adding to that every day, at some point, the, the worm’s gotta turn. And what you’re gonna see is just much more enforcement in these areas. And, and as Asure, you know, when we think of helping small businesses, you know, we really are looking at some of the EEO and OSHA and a, and some of the mechanisms that we believe will be part of the trend over the next 4, 8, 12 years.

VANNOY:

All right, great. La last topic I want to talk about with you today, pat, is, is retirement. And, and again, there, there’s some pretty policy wonky stuff in here. Again, encourage everyone to read that, read the ebook, you get the details on impacts for, you know, 401K tax benefits increased payroll taxes, Medicare eligibility, et cetera. I mean, feel free to comment on that if you like, but I, I, I think I’m more interested in your thoughts on on, on a couple things. The where do you see on the continuum small business owners and entrepreneurs? You know, a again, a lot of these things in the past have always been kind of big company things don’t apply to me as the small entrepreneur. Let, let’s start there for where you think, you know, where should a CEO start thinking about these things as truly benefits that help attract talent, retain talent, and keep, keep employees engaged, versus it’s simply as spreadsheet exercise to whether you can afford it or not.

GOEPEL:

Yeah, I think from a society perspective though, if you take a step back when social security came out you know, there was 128 workers per every employee. And now here in the upcoming years, there’s gonna be two workers for every employee. You know, I’m gonna choose LeBron James and Jeff Bezos is my two workers <laugh>. So I think I’ll be fine in retirement, but, but what, what you’re seeing is there’s not enough retirement dollars. 401K was was really created to be a supplemental benefit retirement strategy. Well, now all of a sudden it’s the primary vehicle. And so I think you got two schools of thought. As a business owner, you wanna reti retire, you want 401K to help shelter your taxes and, and what have you. What I think you’re gonna see is, you know, they’re gonna, the government’s gonna want tax you more as a high you know, a business owner and a position, especially if you’re earning quite a bit money.

So you’re gonna see some law changes around over 400,000 and, and increased taxation and, and what have you. I also think you’re gonna see a redistribution of 401k benefits. If, if you’re somebody making $15 an hour and you’re 22 years old you are only, you’re really not paying that much tax in a 401k. And that’s why the Roth kind of IRA was created a little bit where, you know, you you really pay in or your tax deductible is at a really small percentage, but when you cash out 30 years, 40 years later, you might be paying a very high percentage in taxes. So I think you’re going to see a real emphasis that the employees especially ones that are, are making, let’s say under 40,000, are gonna be able to have higher deductible 401ks, cuz it’ll be you know, as, as the Biden proposal or the Biden camp is, everybody gets the same deductibility.

So in effect, the lower wage folks will get raises. So it’ll make the 401K much more an asset and, and you’ll be a place that they wanna work if you’re ahead where you’re offering those 401ks and generous kind of benefit areas because it’s gonna mean to them more in tax and it’s gonna, in effect, give them a raise. By the same token, as a business owner, you’re gonna wanna watch that taxation because what you thought was gonna be deductible at 39% or so, it might be a limit of only 15 or 20 or 25%. So, you know, you’re gonna see money come outta your pocket you’re gonna see it go into the lower income people. By the same token, if you embrace that policy, you’re gonna be able to recruit talent that way really by presenting what’s in it to for them. And then again, this concept of being able to live at a an okay wage and ultimately being able to retire at an okay wage is really what the Biden folks are really promoting. And we’ll see if that gets through Congress and, and gets through with the election. But I do think you’re gonna see changes on the horizon here in this area.

VANNOY:

Yeah, I, I, I, I think maybe just to, to, to wrap I think a common theme, whether it’s healthcare costs, whether it’s compliance, whether it’s retirement you know, I think it doesn’t matter whether you’re lean far right or far or left whether you’re a laissez faire, <laugh> at, at, you know independent that is a small business owner. Put your, put your personal bias aside and, and kind of keep your eye on, on the, on the big c changes and treat your employees as a partner in the process as though you believe in these things, whether you do or don’t. Cuz it’s that, that, that partnership I think is what just naturally then pulls you ahead of the curve when it comes to the, the changes actually being implemented. Pat, anything else you’d want to add to, to bring this home?

GOEPEL:

Yeah, no, just a couple things. If I step back from it, Mike, I enjoyed the conversation, but you know, my advice for small business owners look forward not in the past two. I applaud you for staying in business and reacting to really a tough nine months. You know, 2020 is gonna be in the rear view mirror here soon enough. Better things are gonna happen in 2021. You’ve undergone a lot of change. But you know, there the, there’s help on the way. Now looking forward over the next four or five, 10 years, I think you’re gonna see a lot of change. You know, we, obviously the government stepped in, did some help, ran some deficits. At some point in time we’re gonna have to pay for those deficits. So you are gonna see increased taxation, you are gonna see a little bit of a redistribution of, of wealth you know, in the to this concept around living wage living benefits.

 You’re gonna see increased enforcement of tax filing dollars and government programs. You’re gonna see a little bit of a heavier enforcement. You’re gonna see a lot of legislative change over the next four years. And, and you’re gonna have to keep up with compliance. And then you wanna attract employees that help your business grow. I’d stay on the offense, I think over the next four years. It’s gonna be a great time to open a business. Cuz if I step back, you can borrow money at a low rate. There’s gonna be opportunities with the pandemic. There’s gonna be pent up demand. So right now’s a great time to expand your business, open your business. The, the vaccines are around the corner. So you have this kind of tale of two cities where it’s gonna be doom or gloom for three months depending on coronavirus cases and, and hospitalizations and even death.

 But as you get the, the nation and the world vaccinated there’s gonna be pent up demand to, to grow. And, and you want to be on the side of, of doing that. And, and you’ve worked all these years stay, you know, embracing change and stay resilient. And I think you’re gonna have the opportunity to really grow over the next few years and Asure software, we wanna be there with you along the way and we wanna grow with you and really you know, as a small business ourselves, we’re walking a mile in your shoes and we’re just honored to be shoulder to shoulder and wanna help you in any way we can. So Mike, thank you for your time today and the small business owners out there. We really appreciate your time.

VANNOY:

Pat, you, thank you so much for joining and thank you everyone else for joining today. And I, I think Pat said it well, not a whole lot for me to, to conclude there. It Asure, you know, we help drive out the complexity of hr whether that’s taxation HR laws, or the HR payroll tech stack. We help you allocate your capital so you’re saving those, those dollars to invest in growth and then ultimately help you build a great team that gets behind your vision and grow the business. So thanks to everybody, thanks to Pat, and we wish you the very best. Look forward to talking to you at our next weekly webinar.

GOEPEL:

Thank you.