VANNOY:

Hello, everyone. My name is Mike Vannoy with Asure, and I’m really excited about this topic. If you’re, if you join US Weekly, you know that we’ve been talking cares, F F C R A E R T C, tax deferral, this tax credit, that how to stay compliant with all the HR legislation that’s happened in the last last year. And it’s really important stuff. But you know, depending where you’re at in the country, the, the around the corner might be in, in different places for each of us. But I think most of us, we all see light at the end of the tunnel. Tunnel hiring is coming back. We’re certainly seeing it in in our data. As we look at payroll accounts businesses are, are opening back up America’s getting back to work. And so this is just really, really exciting times.

And so to join me today I’ve got a special guest somebody that works in our HR services group who talks to customers every single day. And as America gets back to work, it really presents a, a, a bunch of questions. And we’ve talked about these topics before as we’ve had some kind of starts and stops and, you know, we you know, mid first wave, second wave about getting back to office. But there are some considerations to make now that I think are new and fresh. And so joining me today, I want, I want to thank Roshay Rogers. She’s an HR manager in our HR services division. She is think of Roshay as a, as a fractional VP or director of market of of hr for many, many Asure clients. So Roche has been in HR for more than 25 years. She’s worked directly for virtual companies, directly for brick and mortar manufacturing companies, high tech, low tech pretty much every in industry. You, you can, you can think of. And I think what makes Rasher special is she knows the law as as a certified shrm CP would. But her real strength is building relationships. So Roshay welcome and I’m looking forward to our conversation today.

ROGERS:

Thanks, Mike. Me too.

VANNOY:

Okay, so let’s jump in. So, certainly there’s more than five things but I, I think there’s five really big things that I think all small businesses, entrepreneurs, managers, and mid-sized companies need to really be thinking about as we get back to in-person work. So, let’s just jump in on the first one here. And this, this is just such a <laugh>, maybe I’m giving you a softball here, Roshay, but j j just kind of high level, what are the things that employers should be thinking about for just kind of some basic ground rules coming back to work? And I’m thinking both from a, you know, a ocean’s been around for decades, it’s still a very real thing. You gotta create a, a safe work environment. So there’s a safety component, you know, there’s a, there’s a compliance legal component, but just how do we get back to work and start being more productive again, in, in, in, in creating new cultures we want.

ROGERS:

Okay. Yeah. So you mentioned the first one, which of course is osha. And of course that’s called the OSHA duty clause. And the basics there are that, that we as companies are required to provide a safe and healthy work environment. So, of course, COVID being a, a a health and safety issue certainly comes into play there. And I think the basic rules, you know, if you wanted to look at it, it’s, it’s tactical. So a lot of it is what many companies have already been doing as they’ve slowly been bringing people back. So you wanna make sure that you’re, you know, the soup to nuts that, you know, you’re providing the, the proper p p e, you know, you’ve got your, your hand sanitizers. You’re, you’re wiping down the offices, the desks, you’re, you know, you’re making masks and gloves available if, if in case people forget to bring them from home.

 You, maybe you’re doing temperature checks you’ve got your signs up on the walls. I’ve got a client that, you know, you can download them for many, most of your city and state, or even the C D C has, you know, lovely little eight and a half by 11 many posters, you know, that’s talk about, you know, washing your hands, covering your mouth when you cough. It’s, it’s all the basic stuff. But when you start to post that around, you’re, you’re giving your employees a sense of safety that, that you’re looking out for ’em. You’re letting them know you’re taking care business, and you’re, you’re ensuring that they’ve got a safe work environment to come back to. Some companies, you know, depending upon, whether it’s a manufacturing firm or maybe stores, I’m sure you’ve seen ’em, if you’ve gone into your grocery store, it’s, you know, they’ve got signs to say, just walk this way. So, you know, maybe you’re doing that. You’re separating your desks, you’re putting up plexiglass. It’s all the stuff that, again, many of you have probably already been doing, but it’s just that extra level of security and safety to make people feel comfortable.

VANNOY:

Talk to us, maybe some best practices rhe about communication. I mean, is this mm-hmm. <Affirmative>, and I’m not trying to be trite about this, but I mean, is this, because I, I, I feel like I’ve seen all, all forms, you know, anywhere from an organization-wide email and, hey, this is welcome back. These are the rules, and that’s it. Or signage webinars town hall, all kind of all hands meetings. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, how far should employers be going to, to, you know, welcome people back, but also establishing ground rules?

ROGERS:

Yeah. And, well, and it’s funny cuz of course, as Asure has done a lot of that, our, our, my HR department has done that. I mean, we’ve had the town hall meeting where the president you know, we, the Zoom meetings that we all had prior to returning to work on June the first, it was the, you know, welcome, we’ve missed you. This is our new normal. And here’s what we’re doing to ensure your safety. You know, a lot of those things I just mentioned welcome emails to people’s personal email addresses. Or helpful just to say, Hey, just to remind you, you know, we’re starting back to work on this day. Or, you know, we’re staggering. Or, you know, whatever plan you have in place for bringing people back, you just wanna make, I don’t think you can over communicate too much at this point. You want people to get that sense of safety and that they’re, you know, to be excited about wanting to come back to work.

VANNOY:

Russia, how, how should employers be thinking about actually setting policies? So, like some of the stuff you know, some, some, some organizations have culture that is maybe a little more rules driven, other others a little more laissez-faire. So, you know, depending on different cultures people might want to go to different lengths. But how much of this stuff needs to be codified in policy, written, communicated? Just cuz it, as well know, there, there’s a lot of different opinions and personalities in, in political spectrum and you know, don’t have, don’t have to say more that about people returning and how they feel about some of these policies.

ROGERS:

Yeah. Well, you know, and most of that really is what makes the most sense for your particular organization. I mean, if, if you operate a, a grocery store or a mom and pop, or you’re in a beauty salon or some of those things, I mean, some of you, you’ve probably already been bringing peak customers back in at this point. But if you’re, you know, operating a mall to mid-size, large businesses, more communication needs to take place. And maybe you do need more firm policies. I was talking to somebody today that said that they had actually put a policy in their handbook that talked about, you know, if you missed work or coming back to work or, you know, what their covid you know, rules were based on the particular states. They’re in New York, you know, as we know, California, New York Massachusetts and Washington all have little stricter rules than we have here in Texas. But, you know, it’s what, what makes the most sense for you? Do you think you need those, those policies in place? Or is it something that can be just an email or a conversation with somebody about expectations?

VANNOY:

Yeah, maybe, maybe weigh in just pros and cons of having these things as written policies. And when I say these things, it’s, you know, <laugh> Yeah. What you, you know, the position you take. And we’re gonna kind of dive in this in a little bit, but, you know, whether it’s fascinations or masks or distance, social distancing. So whatever, whatever decisions you make what what are some of the pros and cons of, of putting this in into policy?

ROGERS:

Well it’s, it’s kinda like having a handbook a lot. You know, there are a lot of pros and cons to those. Some people are, you know, anti handbook and some are like, oh gosh, I have to have one. If you’ve got it in writing it, certainly the pro is, it gives you something to fall back on. So if somebody is not following the rules or not doing what you expect, you can say, Hey, look, handbook says right here. You sign the handbook. You know, these are the expectations. This is what you gotta do. The flip side of that is it’s in writing, you’ve got firm guidelines. If it’s, if it’s pretty specific. And so therefore you don’t, like I said about the handbooks, you don’t have an opportunity to deviate. I’m of the school of HR that it’s not always black and white. It’s, you know, you have to bob and weave, and sometimes you have to think outside the box. And so therefore, sometimes, you know, if it’s in writing, you can’t quite, you know, make those different decisions when you need to. So I think that’s kind of the, the biggest difference that I would see.

VANNOY:

Yeah. If you make it too legalistic, you can kind of take the human, not a human resources, can’t you?

ROGERS:

Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. Absolutely.

VANNOY:

Okay. So last thing maybe on this topic before we move on to the next one. You know, we, we chose an image here of a screenshot from the, the cdc. And so, like at ashore, I know we did this. I, so, so many of our clients whom I’ve talked to and entrepreneurs I’ve talked to, did the same thing. You know, they didn’t, they didn’t make up their own health guidelines, but kind of outsourced it, if you will, to say, Hey, you know what? We know we’re not gonna please everybody. Some people will want much more lenient, some people will want much stricter depending on on their, their beliefs. But we are gonna rely on guidance from the CDC to, to kind guide us in policy now. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, CDC d is a government agency, but they don’t have regulatory teeth. They don’t, they don’t have legal oversight right. Compliance oversight. So how should people be thinking about leveraging policy or, or suggestions, if you will, from the CDC guidance and interpreting that as policy? And then how does that relate to actual teeth governance compared to some an agency like, you know implementing like, like Department of Labor and oversight of say osha?

ROGERS:

Mm, good question, Mike. It’s a,

VANNOY:

There’s, there’s a big one we can send that’s

ROGERS:

Loaded. <Laugh>, that’s loaded. I, you know, it’s CDC is, has been sort of the, the, the mothership of all guidance. I have found that most of my clients have followed their direction just because it’s, it’s a good starting point to, to refer to. And of course, it, like, I know here in Austin, Texas if you go to the state website here they, they have constantly had referred back to the cdc d c. So I mean, some states may deviate and say, Nope, this is what we’re gonna do on our own. But the CDC d is just good strong guidance, especially if you don’t have a handbook that addresses this or doesn’t have other policies. If you’re following the, their guidance, at least you’ve got, like you said, they don’t have teeth. But if, if it comes down to some sort of legal issue, you can say, Hey, we followed c d C guidance and, you know, we acted in the best interest of our, you know, employees. You know, and a reasonable person would’ve said, you know, maybe we did the right thing. So maybe it doesn’t have teeth, but it’s, it’s been our kind of our go-to Bible.

VANNOY:

Yeah. And, and I think that’s maybe the, the, the big point that I would wanna communicate to entrepreneurs and and business owners here is that you know, by relying on a, on a, on a thoughtful, respected third party especially a government funded one I, I think it just gives you ammunition. So if anybody, you know, you can be sued for anything, right. Being, being right or wrong mm-hmm. <Affirmative> and, and winning or losing are very different things than being sued. You can be sued for anything. So if, if, if you get somebody taking action because of a PO position you took around returning to work and coronavirus you’re, you’re probably at a lot more solid ground. If you, if you have said you are gonna take follow guidance from C D C, and you are also walked your talk and you did that mm-hmm.

<Affirmative> versus, versus hey, I stayed at a holiday in, I’m not a doctor, but I stayed at a holiday in express last night, and therefore here’s my medical policies. Right? right. Yeah. So we’re not saying rely on c d C, use your own judgment, but if it’s not c, d, C you know, make it some body of authoritative work that is respected and you can, and, and you can kind of rely back on anything else you’d wanna say around basic rules for coming back? How, how about, how about speaking to culture? You know, in some ways this is getting back to, but in an awful lot of ways, this is, this is a new normal. This is, there’s no such thing as getting back to, cause everything really has changed from this portfolio. Mm-Hmm.

ROGERS:

<Affirmative>, it’s, you know, it, it, again, it kind of goes back to what I said, you know, you’ve gotta do what’s best for your organization. But I bel the new, the normal was us and we probably get into some more of this later down the road, but on some of our next slides. But then the new normal was working from home for most of us. I mean, obviously stores and hospitals and, you know, all those folks had to, had to keep going back in. But, you know, so the culture or the attitude of employees has definitely changed. So I think let’s, let’s save that for the, the next couple of slides. Cuz I, I certainly have opinions and thoughts on that <laugh>.

VANNOY:

Yeah. Yeah. We, we are gonna, we are gonna take a, one of the five topics just on, you know, virtual versus brick and mortar Yeah. Versus hybrid. So, alright. Next, the, the number, topic number two, I, I’ve heard, I’ve talked to a lot of business owners who, who are really concerned about this. It’s and I, I, you know, I know one specific had of conversation you know, she she decided to base do kind of what we talked about. She’s follow, you know, trying to follow CDC c guidelines. And so when CD said CDC D said, Hey, if you’ve been vaccinated, you don’t have to wear a mask. If if you haven’t been, you should. And so that was the policy she said, and instantaneously she had employees pushing back saying, Hey, that’s, that’s a violation of hipaa. And all of a sudden, you know, HIPAA is being thrown out left and right. And, and I think maybe, maybe we start out <laugh>, can you define for us what the acronym H I P P P A stands for? Cuz I think that explains an awful lot of what HIPAA is and isn’t.

ROGERS:

Yeah, so HIPAA is the health insurance portability act basically. And so that comes into play primarily for medical information. So any of us that have been to the doctor at any time, probably in the last many years have had to, you know, see that piece of paper attached to the sign-in sheet that says, Hey, you know, sign this. We’re letting you know that your information’s private, confidential. We’re not gonna share it with anybody, including your spouse or sister, brother, mother, unless you give us permission. So everybody just, so people just assume that that means, okay, anything that has to do with my medical information, I can’t you can’t share it. Well, there’s, there’s truth to that, but hipaa, with this new vaccinations and so on and so forth, the, the misconception is that you can’t share that information. You can’t ask people if they’ve been vaccinated.

You can’t ask to see their shot records. And that is incorrect. There in particular, if you’ll notice if, for those of you that maybe have already had your shots I feel like I’m a vet. Sometimes it’s like I’ve been, you know, I’ve had my shots. But they <laugh> you’ll notice on that little card that there’s nothing there that’s personal, confidential information. There’s nothing that says you know, why you got the shot. If you have any sort of condition or anything like that. All it says is you either got the Moderna or the Pfizer or whatever it was, and this is the date. So that is not private information. And, and an employer can ask if you have been vaccinated and they can ask to see proof of that. So that does not come into play with respect to hipaa.

VANNOY:

Yeah. You know what, I just pulled mine up on my phone cause I took a picture of it and it’s, it’s last name, last name, first name, date of birth, and then the, the dates of my two shots. Right? So mm-hmm. <Affirmative>

ROGERS:

Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative> and most, you know, and if you’re an employee your employer already has your date of birth because that’s part of your record for payroll purposes and HR purposes and all that good stuff. So, so that is not protected. And

VANNOY:

Your last name and first name <laugh>.

ROGERS:

Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. Exactly. Exactly. So so you can definitely ask for that information from your employees if that’s what you, if, if that’s how you wanna, you know, show that, that your folks have been vaccinated. And that really comes into play. And with respect to the mask wearing, cuz you know, certainly here in Texas, and I’m sure many other states have already said, Hey, you don’t have to, if you’ve been vaccinated, you don’t have to wear a mask. Well, how would an employer know that unless you asked to, you know, asked to see the, the record or you know, we’d like to trust our people, but I don’t, you know, going back to osha I’m not sure trust is gonna prevent you from any sort of a lawsuit if you know, perhaps somebody were to get deathly ill with Covid because, you know, they had got it while you were at work.

VANNOY:

So I, I, I think, you know, when we were contemplating this question and this topic I, I wanted to make sure we put clients in and entrepreneurs at ease that if you want to just know you’re on solid ground, you, you can ask mm-hmm. <Affirmative> for a vaccination card, so mm-hmm. <Affirmative>, it’s not a violation of hipaa. Your it’s not an, not even an unreasonable thing. We’re not, you know, we do our very best to not lean left or right and anything political here, we just lean towards the best advice we can for entrepreneurs. So that said, you can do it if you want to. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> short of coming up with a recommendation, cuz I really think this is a personal decision for business owners. What, what, what advice would you give to business owners who choose to make that a requirement? Or what advice would you give to employers who choose not to?

ROGERS:

Well, so certainly that, so one thing I do wanna add, so if you do request the record, make sure that, and if you do make a copy of it, make sure that you are keeping it in the employee’s medical file separate from their their actual work HR file that should go into medical. Secondly, so the other thing to be aware of is if you choose to ask the question you may get somebody that refuses to answer and they may refuse to answer because of religious or health reasons. So if that is the case, then you do have to end up, you know, sort of break that down a little bit further and have a conversation with the person to see if they, you need to make a medical a accommodate or an accommodation for them. So for example, you might have somebody that has a serious health condition and getting the shot would be a detriment to them.

 Or you may have a certain religion or philosophy belief that says, I can’t get the shot. And the person should be able to share that information with you and say, Hey, I’m, I’m refusing to, to get it based on X, Y, Z, so therefore I don’t have a shot record. Then you would need to have that that basically that one-on-one conversation about what kind of accommodation do we need to make for you. It may be a matter of saying, okay Mr. Ms employee, now you have to you, you have to wear a mask. That would be your accommodation because you’re not getting the shot and, you know, so therefore you can’t prove that you, you know, can’t pass it along or whatever the case may be. So just make sure that you’re, you know, having conversations with people, there may be some folks that, that do refuse based on those particular grounds, and they can. But then you have to be willing to, to have that additional conversation about what to do next.

VANNOY:

Yeah. Yeah. Any other advice around HIPAA considerations? So I think one of the things that makes makes this not a HIPAA violation is that one key component you know for all other, you know, HIPAA laws and, and, and, you know, they talk about the, the portability of health and information. This is a voluntary act, right? So this, this isn’t, we’re gonna, you’re giving us permission to talk to your doctor about whether you’ve got the vaccine, this is the employer asking the employee. So because it’s voluntary, it’s yet another reason why it’s not an issue. But is it a HIPAA violation if the employer shares the vaccinated vaccination status of an employee without their permission to other employees?

ROGERS:

Well, that’s a really good question.

VANNOY:

And I, cause I’m just thinking about,

ROGERS:

Yeah.

VANNOY:

You knew I was gonna try to stump you today,

ROGERS:

Rochelle. Yeah, I did. And I was cursing you beforehand. Good job, Mike.

VANNOY:

What’s going through my head is we’re talking here is, okay. So you know, employees are gonna say, Hey, that’s not fair. They don’t have to. Why do I have to? And yeah, so, so well, and

ROGERS:

I,

VANNOY:

Let’s get some coaching to employers.

ROGERS:

I, so I would say just out of common sense, best practices, you never wanna be sharing that kind of information anyway. That’s, you know, just reads leads to rumormongering and, you know, people whispering in the corners about, you know, so and so and so and so, so, you know, as a, as an HR person, you, you know, not to, to share that information. I think, you know, just keeping that within your, your HR department or within your management team is, is all you need to do. I would say just, you know, the one top point is just always be consistent. If you are, if you’re asking it of one person, make sure you’re asking it of all people. I, I, you know, I’m a firm believer, I guess I’m a little old school. I like paper. Make sure you’re documenting it. You know, have your employee checklist and you know, it’s like checkbox that you’ve, you’ve talked to everybody about the situation. Cuz you do wanna make sure that there’s no discriminatory practice around, you know, who you asked and who you didn’t ask.

VANNOY:

Yeah. So, so I’ll pull back. We’re, we’re not giving legal advice on whether that is or is not a HIPAA violation. My gut says it’s not, but, but you make the good point. It’s, it’s kind of common sense in its courtesy. It is. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, you wouldn’t want your employer sharing anything about your medical status with anybody else. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> show them the same respect. Right. And I’m not gonna go wrong by not sharing that information.

ROGERS:

Correct.

VANNOY:

Okay. Now onto the this, what do they call it? The, the third rail. We’re gonna go touch the third rail here. Roshay mask or no mask. Right? So <laugh>, this is one of the most polarizing <laugh> topics of our, of our day. Probably less so than it was maybe just 30 days ago. Certainly less than it was six months ago. But again, nothing political here. Just good practical advice. How should business owners be thinking about masks policies? What do they allow? What shouldn’t, should they allow? If they say masks? What should those policies look like? If they say no masks? What should those policies look like? Yeah, I don’t think so much what people do so much as the, whatever they choose to do, they do it well.

ROGERS:

Yeah. Again, consistency is key. I th what I understand is, you know if you’re in a medical profession or a school those organizations to my knowledge, are still requiring that masks be worn. So, depending upon what your particular industry is I would, again, check with c d c, check with your local state city ordinances. They will give you the guidance with respect to whether it’s mandatory or not. And then it really goes, if, if it’s not mandatory, I think it really is more of a choice whether the employer wants to require it or not. Certainly again, here in Austin, we, most stores, I mean, I’ve H E B TJ Maxx, you know yes, I’m a shopper. You can, you go to those places and they’re still requiring that you wear your mask.

So depending upon your business again, your, you know, duty, duty clause to ensure the safety of your, your patrons and your employees. So you may choose to continue to ask people to wear them. Certainly I know at ashore, you know, and another client that I support, they’ve said, okay, well, when you’re up walking to the restroom or down the hall, or whenever you’re going into somebody else’s office, please wear a mask. If you’re sitting at your cube or in your own private office, you don’t have to. So it’s really a matter of what the employer decides is, is, is best for their organization. And then just you know, consistency is key. One salon owner that I’m aware of, they ask people to wear masks like the reception area. So anytime somebody’s coming straight into the location that person is wearing, they’re asked to wear a mask, the receptionist is wearing a mask.

And then as they move throughout the salon, they can take it off if they choose to. But then, like the, the salon individuals that work there, they’re actually still wearing masks. So it’s, you know, it’s not one size fits all necessarily. It’s whatever you think is gonna work best for your organization. You know, again, you wanna put your customers and or your employees at ease. So if you are asking people to, or telling people that they don’t have to wear a mask or, or telling them that they do just make sure that you’re also saying, and I don’t know if this would necessarily be a policy or maybe it should that you’re letting all the individuals know in your organization that any kind of bullying or you know, poking fingers, joking, gesturing, you know, making fun of somebody that chooses to wear a mask or maybe that, that will not be tolerated. Again, you want the, just like the physical health of an individual, you wanna make sure they’re, the mental health is being protected as well.

VANNOY:

I think that’s really, really important. So I think as most HR topics go, the word consistency, right? So whether, whether you, whatever your mask policy is, that as long as you implement, as long as you communicate it regularly and clearly, and then implement it very consistently, that, that, that’s the key. But there are, there are 10 tangential HR issues like around you know, making other employees feel comfortable in the decisions they make, even if you don’t agree with it, right? Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, whether you think you’re just helping fun and just having good-hearted laughter or or, or it’s maybe more malicious. Say more about that cuz it, cuz they’re, you know, this is, this is a polarizing topic for, you know, presuming a a a workforce is gonna have, you know, people with all kinds of points of view coming together in a workplace.

ROGERS:

Yeah. Well, I just, I know that my one client just this past week, they’ve, they’ve lifted the mask mandate. They said, you know, you don’t have to wear one. But then they also sent out, well actually they didn’t send out an email, they just they announced it in the manager’s meeting and expect the managers to pass it down to their employees that it is a documentable write up, verbal warning, whatever you wanna call it. If that kind of behavior persists. So it’s, they’re really drawing a kind of a line in the sand to say, look, you know, we’re letting everybody make their own decisions here about whether they’re gonna wear a mask or not, and we expect you to, to, to abide by that and not be malicious or treating people differently because they chose to or, or not.

VANNOY:

Yeah. And I guess my encouragement to employers just, just communicate and, and one of the things you can communicate it is actual, like, just stories cuz that, you know, that makes these issues real. So I was in a meetings is the sure meeting and I think the person meant no harm, but they say, oh, you realize you don’t have to wear that mask. What they didn’t know is that person, you know, they had family members die in, wow, this is extreme. And that person was vaccinated, but they had other family members who were not yet vaccinated. And so this person was ex just being extremely cautious. And had they known that probably would’ve asked the question in such a jovial way, right? Yeah. and, and on the flip side you know, I I I real conversation with one, one of our clients, entrepreneur, and Hey, why are you, you know, what, you know it, it’s, it, it, it, it’s the flip side of that. Why aren’t you wearing the mask? And, and, well, you don’t really realize my other health condition, right? And so you just kind of never know everybody else’s story. But I think as an employee, really just talking through those things to make it real for employees is maybe one of the very best things you could do.

ROGERS:

Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, absolutely.

VANNOY:

Great. Che, anything else? On the whole mask? No mask before I move to the next topic?

ROGERS:

Not off the top of my head, but I might, I might circle back. <Laugh>.

VANNOY:

Okay. Don’t hesitate. So here’s, here’s a biggie. This re this whole notion of returning back to work, it’s almost like, okay, it’s like returning back to airport protocols after nine 11. Well, there’s no such thing as back to the normal, right? It’s, it’s a new normal. And so maybe that’s a good metaphor. Maybe it’s a bad one, but it, it, at least for now, there’s not a totally new normal right now if you’re a completely face-to-face brick and mortar company in one location, maybe, maybe it is, it’s cuz that’s just, you know, your retailer and that’s how your business operates. But there’s a whole bunch of our clients and people on this call today, there are companies that, you know, it’s a combination of, of virtual work and face-to-face work and in choices in flexibility. So what, what’s your guidance for employers here?

ROGERS:

Yeah. Well, you, you, the key word that I thought of and that you just said is flexibility. I think you really, you know, one of the things when I was thinking through this presentation and thinking, looking at this slide, you know, for me personally, I think that you know, we’ve, you talk about the new normal, but it, okay, so we’ve, we’ve been doing this for a year now, almost a year and a half, most of us, and it’s probably been working okay. I think it has. I know I, for me personally, I know I’ve been a heck of a lot more productive when I’m not having to commute to work an hour each way. And I find that I’m putting in way more hours than I ever did when I went into an office. Now, I’m, I may be the anomaly. And I think employers, again, you have to do what’s best for your organization.

You have to decide, you know, do I need that person in a seat in an office? Or can that person continue to work from home if they’re not being productive? You know, that’s, to me, that’s more of an employee relations issue. That’s not about whether that person is sitting in a desk or sitting at home, that that’s showing that that individual, you know, is, is not doing what they need to be doing. And so is that your, your manager’s issue because they’re not having that communication and that constant, you know, contact and feedback. Or is the person, you know, not equipped, do they not have the right tools? You know, whatever the case may be. That’s, I think there’s, there’s the bigger picture here that you kind of have to look at. Now, if you do have office space and you, you need to fill it and you gotta have your people there that’s understandable.

 And again, that’s when you, you know, that slide one that we looked at, that’s where you need to, you know, make people feel comfortable about coming back into the office. But I think you, some of us can look at the roles and say, okay, maybe this particular job req is okay to keep doing from home. And then these particular jobs we need you know, bodies and seats here in the office to be able to continue it. So if, if I’m sounding a little biased, I, I am <laugh>, but that’s me personally.

VANNOY:

Yeah. And, and, and so that everybody’s got different opinions, right? So like I, I talk to customers that, that I, so I, I’ve talked to customers who some are absolutely trying to take advantage of this, where they see employees who prefer to be virtual, they got a taste of it, they like it better, and they’re trying to make a land grab on talent by by capitalizing on that and switching to a much more virtual world. I’ve seen other companies where I don’t need it. It just wasn’t working right. And I, it’s interesting as an executive here, you know, you know, responsible for different departments, I can absolutely see pockets of greater pro productivity. I could also see overarching white space that just grows between groups that the face-to-face collaboration is much more productive in the whole, right? So I don’t, I don’t even think there’s necessarily a right or wrong answer. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. And, and I, if you hop on our, on our blog, we probably have 50 articles in the last few years on, on virtual work and productivity. It, the, the data is really clear. A hundred percent virtual employees are equally disengaged as 100% office workers. The most engaged, most productive employees have flexibility. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. But that said, your business might not suit well for that, right? Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. So, so you kind of gotta, you know,

ROGERS:

Yeah, I think,

VANNOY:

But just based on your circumstances.

ROGERS:

Yeah, it’s absolutely, and I think, you know, in the pro camp, and I’ll go go back to that just briefly, I know one of the, if, if, if anybody listening in, if they’ve been searching for candidates these days it, it’s currently an employees market. I’m, I don’t know why that is, but because of the, the ability to be virtual p people are able to find jobs all over the world now not just, you know, down the street. So I think, you know, part of this ability to be virtual is you’ve gotta look at the type of talent you’re looking for. I mean, obviously if you’re a restaurant that doesn’t, that doesn’t work for you. But if you are a software company, I mean, gosh knows we’ve, we’ve got enough offshoring going on. You know, but you can find talent anywhere.

So that’s one thing to consider for your particular organization. I think part of the productivity too, I would, I would just say that again, for me personally, I’ve had more interaction via Zoom meetings than I probably did when I worked in an office. I’m, I’m, I’m reaching out to people more. I’m actually making that connection. And one thing I would say to people is, if you’re having those Zoom meetings and this personal preference, but make it mandatory that you see people’s faces, I mean, I can’t tell you how many meetings I’ve sat in on where, you know, I’m talking to a dead screen. And for me personally, making, building relationships is what I’m all about. And so if I can’t see that person, you know, whether they’re sitting across the table from me or on the other side of the video screen, I have no connection with that person. And so I think as a manager that’s just a tandem out to having any sort of a conversation keeping your employees engaged and building those relationships.

VANNOY:

Yeah. I, to me, the best word you just said it Roshay is, is engagement. So you know, if if you’re, if you’re a manufacturer, you’re a tool and die shop, obviously you gotta come build stuff, right? Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, and if you’re a software development company, obviously you can be a hundred percent virtual. I, I think, I think this is probably a message for the 80% that are somewhere in between, right? And at least have different jobs within that company that lend itself to virtual work or at least least flexible work, right? Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. So I i, in that context, you know, put on your legalistic HR hat. What, what, what is, what is your, what is your guidance for small business owners around writing policy? You know, how, how, how firm do you need to be on policy? Can you just let this happen kind of organically, let manager do your own thing? What’s the, what’s the downstream of being loose about something like this?

ROGERS:

Well, and I, and you know, as much as I’m pro virtual, you definitely have to have parameters in place. Some people, I mean, we all know that there’s gonna be the, the handful that are just gonna, you know, go off the rails and, you know, never be never be working. But, so you do have to have a, a, a teleworking policy in place that, that sets the expectations of, okay, you know, our core hours are from X to X. You, you know, you need to be on online, you need to be responding to customers, you need to be responding to emails, you need to, you know, answer your phone. I mean, just, again, common sense, but it, it does have to be in writing what the expectations are. You know, it, there does even, you know, going down a different path, that’s probably a topic for another time.

But, you know, you have to consider, you know, are you providing laptops? Are you providing paper and pens? Are you reimbursing for X, y, z? You know, what happens if there’s you know, somebody slips out of their, their at home work chair, you know, those kind of thing. You know, worker’s comp there’s a lot of little nuances to people continuing to work from home that, you know, maybe you’ve already encountered in this last year and a half. But, so if you allow it, you, you do need to have a policy in place that, that talks about what the expectations are and look at the particular jobs, you know, evaluate which ones are more conducive to that versus I mean, obviously one of my main clients is a manufacturing firm, so I mean, that’s not been an option for most of them.

 But they do have a software development team that has been allowed to work from home. And so we’ve had to put policies in place for for those folks to make sure, because there’s also, there, there can also be some flexibility within that. It’s like, okay, so on Monday, Tuesday, and Wednesdays, we have staff meetings and we need you here in the office, but on you know, Tuesday, Thursdays you can work from home or whatever the case may be. So I believe in creativity and thinking outside the box. So, you know, it’s not one size fits all for everybody, but you know, maybe it’s a, I think you said this earlier, you know, it’s a hybrid situation.

VANNOY:

Yeah. And I guess, so maybe to tie out on this topic, the, it’s the common themes in hr. You gotta keep it human. This is all about developing talent, developing a workforce that gets behind your vision to, to, to kind of go all in together, lock armed side by side, so to speak e executing your, your company strategy. And so you might not wanna be overly legalistic because that might not, you know, contribute to culture, but man, you, you, you, you can’t hardly document this stuff enough. More importantly, you can’t communicate it enough. So even if you’re, even if you’re light on documentation of policy you know, tell ’em over and over and over again and just communicate these policies so that everyone’s on the same page. Yeah. Mm-hmm. <Affirmative>, anything else you’d close out here?

ROGERS:

Just to your point, communication is key.

VANNOY:

Yeah. Okay. Last topic that I wanna talk about. And I think it kind of ties back a little bit to the previous one, cuz I think there’s just gonna be change, right? There are gonna be people that were maybe, maybe they were even really high performers in, in the old world, but for whatever reason, they just don’t feel safe coming back to your office or your place of work because of a policy you have. Maybe they have a life circumstance that has simply changed that they just don’t have the, that they require more flexibility than they did pre pandemic, right? Or, you know, maybe they got a taste of this new virtual world and they’re not willing to give it up. So what, what’s, what’s your advice to employers when it comes to the employee who just, somebody doesn’t wanna come back?

ROGERS:

Communication. Communication. So those are the one-on-one conversations that you should be having with the person to, you know, sit down on a, or virtually, or over the phone or however you’re gonna do it, and just have that one-on-one conversation to say, okay, why don’t you want to come back to work? Let, let’s talk through this. You know, flies with, flies with honey kind of concept. If, you know, you can, you can draw the line in the sand and say, you know, no, darn it, you gotta be back here. And, you know, if that’s your way to work with your employees good luck. But I think having that conversation to find out what the issue is because it, you know, it may just be a matter of the person that’s you know, Hey, I’ve gotten a, a taste of this and I I’m loving it.

Or it could be the person that’s got the family member that’s ill or that has the childcare issue, or they themselves have maybe had covid and so they’re hesitant to come back, you know, they’ve got a compromised immune system. So there’s a myriad of reasons why a person may not wanna come back. And I think you have to understand the reason before you can determine what the next step is. Certainly for the employee that has the the issue of, of, of a health condition there are are practices you need to put in place. You need to have that interactive conversation where you can discuss what the accommodation may be. You know, maybe it’s just a matter of, Hey, we’re gonna give you your own office over here in the corner. We’re gonna put a plexiglass, we’re gonna give you a, you know, you have to wear a face mask.

Whatever the case may be. You know I’m hearing, even hearing now, people are looking at ventilation systems, making sure that the air quality is, is is better or things like that. But to understand where they are, whether you, they need to make, you need to make an accommodation for them it could also apply other various laws that come into place with this. You know, Americans with Disabilities Act in California, there’s the Fair Employment and Housing Act some various paid sick leaves depending upon what state you’re in. So there may be other legal or issues in play here that you need to consider as well. But I think the, the first start is to have that conversation with the person about why are you, why are you concerned about coming back to work? What are you afraid of? And how can we address this?

VANNOY:

You know, it’s interesting. I think it’s why you’re good at your job, Rasha. Cause your, your answer here was not legalistic. It’s like, okay, you know, this is the policy if you don’t like it our way or the highway. And, and you know, there, there, there’s some, there could theoretically be some cultural benefits to taking a hard stance, right? Because Yeah. Cause if, cause when you allow exceptions, then you’re gonna have to deal with all those people who, you know, claim unfairness. Right? But I couldn’t agree more. You, the first thing you said was this is all about conversations, right? Yeah. This is about, this is about talking, this is about communicating and then not just communicating with that employee, but all of the other employees in, in, in, there’s, there’s very few situations that aren’t so difficult that they can’t be overcome if you just talk to each other enough, you know?

ROGERS:

Yeah. Okay. Yeah. And, and most people hate s HR people because that’s the kind of, kind of kind of information we give out. But you know, we’re, we’re all humans. We all wanna be treated with dignity and respect, and, you know, most of the time, most of the time, not always, but it can be worked out by just having a conversation.

VANNOY:

Well, I, I, I think, I think we’re gonna wrap on that topic. So, so we hit the five, but, but I think that hits it on the head because as, as America reopens and people go back to work, and, and certainly most people are back to work, and in some point have been for a while, but we’re still kind of, sort of returning to, to, to to normal as, as, as we, we start approaching a tipping point with the vaccines especially. But there’s so much of this, you know, I, I, we’re, we’re used to you, you know, you and I’ve been in this industry for long enough that, that this is very legislatively driven, right? Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, you, you mm-hmm. <Affirmative>, you have, you have osha, you have Department of Labor you have, you have hipaa there, there’s aca, there’s all these acronyms that are just laws and, and we’re used to communicating to employers.

These are the laws you gotta file. So you, the, you stay outta hot water, right? And, and you’re following the law. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, you know, the, the point, the, the place we point to here is the C D C. Well, the cdc d c doesn’t have a badge or gun. They can’t, they don’t, they don’t regulate, right? And so, because this stuff is so nuanced, there’s, it’s so politically charged it is about safety. It, it, it, it’s about productivity at work. And there’s so many strong opinions that I, I, I, I would just go back to, you know, the, we came up with a list of five topics, maybe it’s three. It’s communication, communi communication, communication. I’ll, I’ll, I’ll give you the final word here. What if, if you had to just kind of summarize for entrepreneurs and, and business owners, what, what should they be? Really just thinking about, net this out for how they should be planning on, on getting employees back to work.

ROGERS:

You’ve gotta figure out what your communication strategy is. Well okay, so first you gotta figure out what your, your strategy is. What’s your goal? Do you have to have everybody in the office? Is it a, some in, some out? And then you’ve gotta figure, you know, who are those people? How are you gonna go about doing that? And then communicate it. And then if, and thirdly, be open to having those one-off conversations with people that are fearful or or stubborn <laugh>, you know? And just, you know, and it may get to the point, if you’ve got somebody that is absolutely refusing to come back to work, there is no legitimate reason you can consider termination. That is, that’s a, a, a final step.

VANNOY:

Yeah. And, and, you know, we don’t wanna necessarily take conversation that direction, but it’s, if you say the the job is in the office and they refuse to come to the office, you’re not really the one terminating them, you know, at that point. Well,

ROGERS:

And this is true. If they refuse to come back, it is considered a a voluntary separation, so,

VANNOY:

Right, right. Okay. Well maybe I shouldn’t have taken that, that dark turn in the last couple seconds. Well,

ROGERS:

Sorry. Yes.

VANNOY:

Conversation <laugh>. Okay. But r rashe, thank you so much appreciate your, your thoughts on this. And honestly, I really appreciate the fact that this is a topic that is, that is so important for people to get right, because it’s gonna have long, the, the, the, the echoes are gonna, are gonna last for a long time on this thing, right? Where people, employees feeling like they’re being treated fairly and other employees feel like you’re tr treating them consistent as against policies as everybody else, and all, all those things. If you don’t do it well, just undermines productivity in, in building the culture of a winning team. So it’s more nuanced than I think most HR topics, but it, it’s important to get this one right.

ROGERS:

Absolutely.

VANNOY:

Okay. And with that this is what we’re in the business to do is help payroll help small businesses get payroll and hr, right? We have 80,000 small business clients. We have current programs right now helping businesses get the stimulus that they are entitled to under the law, specifically the employee retention tax credit. If you hop on our website, Asure software.com/erc, learn all about it. See if you qualify. And if you do, we would love to participate in helping you get some of that tax, those tax credits in the stimulus that you need to really jumpstart and get your business growing again. With that rhe thank you. And thanks to everyone for attending, and look forward to talking to everybody next week.

ROGERS:

All right, thanks everybody.